Transcript 0:01 Hi, everyone. Today, we're joined by Betsy Wills, co-founder of YouScience and author of Your Hidden Genius: The Science-Backed Strategy to Uncovering and Harnessing Your Innate Talents. 0:12 After two decades in financial services and marketing, Betsy took an aptitude test of her own at 34, and it sent her on a mission to build YouScience into a platform now used by more than three million people, embedded in over a quarter of US high schools and 600 plus colleges. 0:27 As a regular guest lecturer at Vanderbilt University and NYU Stern, Betsy also serves on the Strategic Advisory Board of NYU Stern Initiative on Purpose and Flourishing, the advisory board of the Peggy Guggenheim Museum in Venice, and the Music Center City 0:44 Authority in Nashville. Betsy has also been featured as a TEDx Women speaker. Thank you so much for joining us. I am so excited to be here. 0:52 I love the whole concept of your, of your, uh, podcast and newsletter, so I can't wait to have this conversation. All right. Well, let's jump right in, talking about aptitude versus everything else. 1:04 You define aptitude as the seeds of your skills, not the skills themselves. Can you unpack that distinction for us a little bit? Absolutely. 1:12 Think of aptitudes, actually there are 52 different aptitudes that can be scientifically measured, okay? 1:19 These range from some people are able to identify color and different hue discrimination, that's an aptitude, to some people generate ideas at a really rapid pace, and other people, it's more like a slow drip coffee maker. 1:33 You know, it's one idea at a time. And that range is really helpful when we're trying to determine where we wanna spend our time and be most satisfied. 1:42 Another key one that a lot of people, you know, miss that they may have or may not, would be things like, uh, spatial ability. 1:49 You know, some people just naturally think in 3D, in images in their head, and other people, not so much. They think more abstractly. 1:57 But the cool thing about aptitudes are they're innate, they're born in us, and they're the, the-- once you apply learning and practice to them, we either learn faster and better with the ones that are stronger, or the ones that may be weaker can be an uphill battle for us. 2:13 So it gives us permission to follow the things that come easily when you know what your aptitudes are, and the also permission to let go of things that may not be as easy for us. 2:23 And we've all got a beautiful set of them, so there's no good or bad to what your combination is. 2:29 But, um, as, when I call it the seeds of our skills, not the skills themselves, I do wanna remind people that motivation is sold separately. 2:37 So, you know, but, but the first step is uncovering, you know, what is it I've got in this treasure trove, and that's what an aptitude is. 2:44 One question that came to mind is, you took a test at 34, and then now you're getting these into high schools and colleges. Can you talk to us about how learning about this at different ages has different impacts? Sure. 2:58 So, um, aptitudes emerge when we are as early as two years old. But the full suite of them, as I said, 52 different aptitudes, are really fixed by the time we're 17. Mm. But the cool thing is they don't change. 3:13 So any age is the right time to have your aptitudes assessed after about 17. 3:19 So when we started the company to bring this really high quality assessment to the marketplace, we wanted to target students in high school and colleges first because we knew they had the most acute problem with expense, um, for college and, you know, needed that direction immediately. 3:37 But for me, as you said, I took it at 34, and it changed my life. 3:41 So I wrote the book that we'll talk about, that includes a, an access to the assessment itself for you, for your audience, uh, because I know, you know, just learning what your aptitudes are at any age can be so valuable. 3:54 'Cause we're in a world where we don't even know what the job is gonna be, as you know, in the next 10 years. 4:00 So right now is the time to kind of know what those are and redirect our learning and practice to things that, uh, can fulfill us and pay us. It's so interesting. 4:11 When I was going to college and I, I think back, I'm like, "Man, I wish I did the gap year so I could learn a little bit more about myself before I made these big decisions that cost a lot of money and were supposed to direct my, my career." 4:24 Yeah. I go to Camp Rachel. You can go to Camp Rachel. [chuckles] Yes, I love that. It's, it's much less about what other people think you should do and much more about what you are, are built to do. 4:37 I actually ended up taking the Myers-Brigg in my mid-20s, and that also changed a l- my life and, and I thought about what I was doing, and why I really didn't like my job made a lot more sense. 4:47 [chuckles] So you describe a lot of people as wanderers, guessers, and stumblers when it comes to figuring out what they're actually good at. Yeah. 4:55 Can you tell us what that looks like on the day to day for someone who may be misaligned with their aptitudes? Well, what it looks like typically is either boredom or burnout, okay? 5:06 So, you know, when you're not i- a fit in your job, you know it. You know it. But sometimes we have to tolerate aspects of our job that are not great fits in order to do the things that are. 5:18 So there's no one perfect job. But we can get a lot closer to that by understanding h- what we're built to do. The problem is people have been wandering because they've had poor direction. Mm. 5:31 And I, I wanna explain why this is so important. Up until, um, 2010, the major tools that were used in high schools have been things like the Myers-Briggs for guidance, or StrengthsFinder, or, uh, an interest test. 5:45 You may remember taking that, where it told you to be a dental hygienist or a forest ranger, and you were like, "Why the, why in the world?" That was not a plot, okay? Um, the tools were just inadequate. 5:56 Those, those assessments are good, but on a scale of one to 10, they're about a one- Mm... 'cause they're built as surveys. 6:04 So if you remember Myers-Briggs, they ask you to tell the survey on a scale of one to five, "I think this," or, "I like this better than that." And so what ends up happening is you're getting a reflection. 6:18 Um, it, so it's like walking into a mirror versus through a door, which the door is an objective assessment of what your innate abilities are. 6:27 So combining aptitude assessments with per- personality assessments like Myers-Briggs and interest gives you a rounder, fuller picture. 6:38 But up until 2010, you couldn't test aptitudes, uh, affordably because computing power didn't really allow it, 'cause you have to actually... When you take the assessment, you'll see. You have to do things. It's games. 6:49 It's a series of games. So we don't care what you think you are good at, you have to prove it in these little games. So it's fascinating. Uh, but again, think about 2010 if you can. 7:00 Your audience may not remember, but we were playing, like, Pong, you know, [laughs] on the computer. It just didn't, didn't, uh, it didn't have the power to do the things that they have now. So that's the breakthrough. 7:11 And you mentioned taking it 34. Could you tell us a little bit about your own personal experience with the test and, and what it changed for you? 7:18 Well, as I, as I say in the book, uh, I went to Johnson O'Connor, which is the gold standard for this assessment. It takes two days, and it is $700. 7:28 So, uh, for me, it was life-changing, but it was prior to the ability to get this less expensively online. But the minute I took it, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I had no idea these were, these things were possible." 7:41 'Cause like many of, many people, I'd always been told, "Oh, you can be anything," okay? I mean, not true [laughs] number one, but also not helpful. Not helpful. 7:52 So what it did was gave me a, you know, a, a package of ideas for me to pursue and explore, which I did. And they ranged in a huge way from writing and journalism to marketing to, you know, fine art curation. 8:08 Cool things that I wanted to do. So I ended up immediately, you know, going back to graduate school. And like you, Rachel, I wrote a sort of a... Uh, let's see. Wait a minute. 8:19 So like you, Rachel, I decided to write a curriculum or, or a newsletter, and it was called The Brain Spa, okay? 8:28 And I thought, "I'm gonna help all these women who are 32 to 35, who've been home with children, who are highly educated, and help them get back into the workplace." 8:38 Well, what ended up happening was my massive major customer were 40-year-old, 40-year-old male lawyers, okay? 8:49 And that's when the light bulb went off for me, that, you know, everyone is gonna go through times in their lives where they have this nagging feeling like they're not really in the right spot, and that's normal. 9:02 And so, you know, that, that kinda relieved me of a lot of things to understand that, and gave me permission to try different things in and outside of my work. It's... And the... 9:12 And if you're, you know, if you're, wanna take the bull by the horns, you do something about it, and, uh, try to understand yourself better. 9:20 The other outcome for this, though, is, is really even more important, which as a parent I learned, uh, and as a friend. 9:27 And that is that not all of us are the same, and we should stop looking at other people like a flawed version of us. 9:36 It's about empathy and love, 'cause when you see it in black and white how different you may be than your sister or your cousin or your spouse, it, it relieves a lot of that, "Why aren't you just like me?" You know? 9:49 And then allows you to go forward with the things that are unique to you. It really makes me think about what you said earlier, which is how unhelpful the advice is, "You can do whatever you want." 10:01 And that translates into curriculum when I was growing up, which is, "You should be good at everything- Yes. That's it... if you want to do anything." Where 10:12 what you're saying is, focus on your aptitudes because your passions most likely lie there, too, and there's that overlap, is the sweet spot that I think fulfillment lies in. Yeah. 10:25 And I think the schools are slowly coming around to, to this, but it's, it's certainly slower than, than we'd like, I think. Yeah. And one image I always mention is that our aptitude pattern is what's important. 10:38 So everyone has all these aptitudes in different degrees, and it looks more like a soundboard. 10:44 So you think about music, the beautiful music is when you have the, the, you know, spikes and angles on that soundboard, not when everything's way up here or way down here. 10:54 And everyone will see their results and, and see their own beautiful pattern, and that pattern matches a lot of opportunities. And it's okay if you're, you are really strong in certain areas and not so much in others. 11:07 It's not just okay, it's actually directional. Very directional. Yeah, y- I'll give you an example. I mentioned idea rate. That's something we measure, okay? It's a little five-minute aspect to the assessment. 11:20 And, you know, some people have that, and so they, they have ideas like a blender with the top off. I mean, it's just constant. We've met those people. I mean, I have to say I'm one of those people. 11:30 You are, I'm sure, 'cause a lot of journalists and podcasters are. You don't want your surgeon or your pilot to have that, okay? [laughs] So it's not good or bad. 11:40 It's just where you fall on that continuum that's so helpful to know. 11:45 And then when you know you have it or you don't have it, you can pursue the things that appreciate and use it, and that's what I mean by learning and practice. It's a seed of our skill. 11:56 So as you've been doing your podcast, for example, I'm sure you've gotten better and better at it, and it's because it's being driven by that unique aptitude. 12:05 I'm curious if there's any trends, uh, that show up when people take the test and they're surprised at the end when they actually get to discover more about themselves. 12:18 Well, I, I, I mean, as I said, there's so many different aptitudes. Now, in our assessment, I do wanna clarify for your audience, we only assess 14 'cause not all aptitudes are created equal, okay? 12:30 So we test the 14 that are the most impactful for people to know. But the one I think often surprises people is, is it when we uncover whether they think spatially or not. 12:42 And so many people, uh, because school does not value this early enough, they think, "Oh, I'm, I'm no good at that." And think of all the jobs that use a spatial ability. I mean, they're surprising. 12:54 Data analysis uses it, uh, you know, medical research, architecture of course, design. And so the assessment itself is quite harrowing. 13:04 [laughs] And I'll, I'll leave that for everyone to try and they'll discover this, but I... 13:09 People come back from taking the assessment before they get their scores, and that particular aspect to the assessment, the spatial ability assessment aspect, they say, "Oh, that was so hard. 13:19 I felt like throwing the computer out the window," you know? And then it comes back and says, "Guess what? You're, you're very spatial and you should consider some of these activities. 13:27 Even take a pottery class or, you know, do something to use it. Sailing, golf." And, uh, that's the one I think most people are very surprised at if they have it. 13:37 And then if they don't, you know, it's pretty obvious they, they've been avoiding activities that use it. 13:43 But we call that one a, an itch that needs to be scratched, because if you have it and you're not using it, you're really missing something in your life, whether it's in a hobby or in your job. 13:54 So that one always comes to mind. One more example question. Okay. Can you think of anyone who, after seeing their aptitude on paper, completely changed the direction they were headed? Absolutely. 14:07 I mean, the book, as I said, we, we talked to 80 different people from ages, uh, 17 to 70. 'Cause you can take this aptitude assessment at any age, and you're gonna score the same, by the way. 14:18 It, your aptitudes don't change. And, uh, we had one young man though that, um, you know, we all tr- try to please people. We try to please our parents and, you know, hardworking people, we're all hardworking. 14:29 And he decided to go to, um, gradu- to school to be an accountant because that was gonna be, um, you know, he could sleep indoors as an accountant. [laughs] That would be smart. And his parents encouraged it, of course. 14:41 And he went to graduate school, got a big job, I think it was at Deloitte, and he was super unhappy. I mean, he could do the work 'cause he just was a driver. 14:51 But he said, "I'd go to work every day and, you know, I'd have to work a little bit longer than everybody else. I couldn't understand why the person next to me was so jazzed about the tax code changing." [laughs] Yeah. 15:03 And he was like, "I was like, 'I do not care.'" You know, but he, he could do the work. And so he took the assessment, and it absolutely changed his life. 15:11 He discovered, A, he was very spatial, which he needed to use, and he had a great ability in marketing. Mm. So the great thing is, though, it's not bad that he had pursued that accounting degree. 15:23 He was average there, and it certainly helped him 'cause now he's an entrepreneur and, um, has, this is gonna sound interesting, but a dumpster company that has been extremely successful, and he markets it and it's gone, you know, into many, many different states, and it's using a physical product, which is a very 3D kind of reward or thing to do. 15:44 So that was a big change and a successful one. And again, he didn't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. With the accounting degree, that does help you. 15:53 So no matter what you're doing, there's not, it's not like you're gonna say, "Well, that was completely wrong. I, you know, I'm sorry I did that." It's about transforming yourself right now into a better, better place. 16:05 So speaking of transforming right now, for someone who is listening and suspects they might be in a place where they're, they're not truly aligned with their aptitude- Yeah... 16:15 what's the first thing you think they should do in addition to taking the test? Uh, well, first of all, don't quit your job. [laughs] That's what I'd say. Do not quit your job. 16:24 Uh, sometimes it's literally like a pivot within your job slightly. You know, like I've... 16:30 a lot of unhappy lawyers, they might discover they have an aptitude in, you know, marketing or, um, 3D visualization again, for example. Maybe they wanna shift their practice to real estate law- Mm... 16:44 you know, where they can utilize that more. Uh, or maybe, you know, they wanna write the newsletter for the firm, you know, something like that. Hel- you know, add on some things that give them joy- Mm... 16:55 or offload some things that are really, you know, tedious for them and a waste of their time. So, you know, I'd say don't quit your job. Let's look at ways you can adjust your job to your, to make you more satisfied. 17:09 And then the other thing I'd say is think about adding something. Uh, you know, I hear the excuse a lot like, "I don't have time." I, I really don't buy that. 17:20 You don't have time to waste, and it's amazing how much time I know I waste, that if I had some encouragement and knew my aptitude pattern and suggested things I could be doing outside of my work, it may might make my job much more p- tolerable to be able to add something that gave me joy outside of work. 17:41 Mm-hmm. So those are some things I, I first think about. Now, of, of course, I know some people are miserable in their jobs, and I don't want that for anyone, so, 17:52 you know, that's real, but I don't think it's as real as maybe we make it out to be. 17:56 Your point on, uh, modifying existing job is an important one that you don't hear a lot, and it, it's very possible if you speak up and you have a sense of what you're interested in. 18:08 So I really appreciate that recommendation and heeding the advice of don't quit immediately. Keep things relatively stable, but make adjustments in time. You also talk about generating three viable options- Yes... 18:20 before making changes and whether it may be bigger career changes instead of going with the first idea that comes to mind. 18:26 Can you talk to us- Yeah, yeah Yeah, that's the frying pan into the fire theory [laughs] you know, that a lot of people just wanna... 18:33 They get, they take it to the point where they're so miserable that they just want out, right? Mm-hmm. And then they'll take anything to get out. 18:41 And the, the better thing to do is a practice of creating three live options before making a decision. 18:51 So I call it, you know, if, if you only create one option, like interview for one job from another job, then you're probably going to default. Mm-hmm. Okay? 19:02 A real decision involves at least three options, and so that's just a rule of thumb. And I will say, uh, it is difficult to create three live options. 19:13 But maybe the first option is not doing anything, so maybe it's just two. 19:17 But the, your goal when you're looking for a new job should be creating three live options, and that's gonna take talking to a lot of people, okay? A lot of people. 19:27 But the value of that is, you know, that you're actually making a conscious choice. You're not just abandoning ship and then hopping from one miserable situation to the next and hoping for a different outcome. 19:38 I think that's great advice before you get too overwhelmed. Yeah. And it can be difficult once you get to the point of burnout, but that is repeating the pattern of going in desperation and not, uh, intentionally. Yeah. 19:53 Sometimes, you know, getting out of a job into a not a great next job, you know, can be a relief to some people, so I do recognize that. 20:01 But it, and looking for a job can be fun when you create this idea of, "I'm not really looking for a job, I'm looking to create three options right now." 20:10 So you, when you talk to people, you're sort of like a little more open about it, not as desperate. Super useful. I really appreciate your time. I know people are gonna wanna learn more. 20:20 Can you tell us where they can find you and pick up Your Hidden Genius? Well, uh, you can go to yourhiddengenius.com and there's every way to order the book. 20:30 We're of course on all the major outlets, um, Amazon, you know, uh, Books A Million, everywhere. 20:35 And so I would just recommend getting the book because it includes a free code to take this fabulous assessment that I took for $700. 20:44 And once you take it, it's free with the book, and you take it online, and it opens up all kinds of tools for you to use as you search for your next position and for hobbies and other things you might enjoy doing. 20:57 It's a wonderful way to jumpstart and give you permission and new thinking. Thank you so much for speaking with me today. I look forward to sharing all of your advice and experience with our audience. Thank you.
