Transcript 0:00 Hi, everyone. Today we're joined by Jack White, founder of Honeybees Group and host of the Girls Make Bank podcast. 0:07 Jack spent over 20 years in sales and business development at places like LearnVest, Daily Candle- Candy, The New York Times, and Armani Exchange before launching her own company to help women sell with confidence. 0:18 She's been featured in Forbes and Entrepreneur, and has spoken at Shop Talk and Advertising Week. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm so happy to be here, Rachel. Thank you. All right. Well, let's jump right in. 0:30 You spent 20-plus years selling inside companies. Can you talk to us a little bit about what was going on in your life that made you want to start Honeybees and help other women? Yeah. So after... 0:41 So I have big career working for both corporate companies, VC-backed startups, and I always use consulting as sort of like my in-between startup gigs. So I would sort of start at an early-stage company. 0:55 We would scale to a certain point and either exit or I would leave, and then do some side projects while I was looking for my next full-time gig. 1:04 I w- was in one of those cycles when I deci- found out that I was pregnant, and it took us a very, very long time to get our son here. 1:13 And so I thought I would use consulting as sort of like my maternity, you know, leave kind of gig. 1:20 And as I was consulting for a while, COVID hit, and so all of the full-time gigs that I was looking at, um, suddenly disappeared, and I didn't have childcare. And so I continued to consult. 1:33 And what I realized at a certain point was that I had found my next full-time gig. [laughs] I didn't want to work for another company. 1:40 I really enjoyed, um, building my own business, and I really enjoyed getting to work with different clients. 1:48 I started out working with female-founded VC-backed companies, so it was a lot of founder-led companies, founder-led sales teams, and I would come in and act as sales leadership. 1:59 And then what I realized is that a lot of my friends who were really great at what they did worked at corporate companies that for f- one reason or another found themselves unemployed, whether by choice or not, 2:14 and they needed to start their own businesses. Or they wanted to leave corporate to build a different kind of life for themselves, and they were starting their own businesses, and they were fantastic at what they did. 2:27 They did not know how to price, pitch, or package their services, and so they were asking me for help, and, you know, "Can you help me with a sales call? Can you help me figure out how to price?" 2:40 And so I started working with women servicepreneurs. And so we are building our own small businesses. We are doing it on our own terms. 2:49 And there is so much fulfillment that I get from helping women make money and feel good doing it and do it on their own terms, that seven years later I'm more on fire about what I do [laughs] than I probably have ever been. 3:05 That's incredible. There's so many women in our audience- Yeah... that are very much right in that wheelhouse of transitioning for one reason or another into starting their own thing. Yeah. 3:18 I'm, I'm curious, how do you talk to women who have had careers inside orgs and have either sold or not sold, but it's just different to come out on your own? Yeah. 3:30 How do you talk to them about setting up and getting started in terms of generating revenue on sale? Yeah. So I think a lot of times women who are starting their own fractional or consulting or advisory, 3:44 small agency, whatever business you're starting, I always say sell before you build. Mm. 3:49 So I've seen a lot of women invest time and energy into creating beautiful branding and gorgeous websites and all of these offers and packages and all of this marketing material, which if you're a marketing person, don't come at me. 4:07 I'm not saying that that's not important. But I think people underestimate how long it takes to get paying clients. 4:16 And so I think you need to start selling on day one, even before you necessarily know what it is you're selling. Start having conversations around what services people need as it relates to what you do. 4:32 My business in seven years has gone through multiple iterations or versions of itself, because what I thought I wanted to focus on or what I, the type of work or how I want to work has changed over time. 4:50 And so in the very beginning when you leave your corporate job and you're starting your own business, you don't necessarily know how you want to work. Are you charging hourly? Are you charging on a flat retainer? 5:03 Are you charging project basis? You don't necessarily know what that scope of services is going to be. 5:11 And so to put a lot of time and energy into creating all of this stuff that you don't really know, one, if you're going to like doing, or two, if people are going to be willing to pay for it, I think is a waste of really precious time that you could be using to generate income. 5:29 So that's number one, is really talk to people and figure out some packages and how to generate money in the beginning, because the stress of not having a paycheck can be really debilitating for a lot of people. 5:43 And so that leads me to the second thing I always tell people to figure out, and that's what is what I call my enough number. So this is how much money I need my business to generate in order to live my life. 5:58 It's not my ultimate dream... salary or the amount of money I want my business to make, it's how much I actually need. 6:05 And surprisingly, a lot of women who are coming from corporate and starting their own business, they don't know that number. 6:12 Because when you work for a company and you get on a W-2 and you're getting a paycheck, all of your taxes are taken out, sometimes your healthcare's taken out, your retirement is already taken out. 6:23 Everything that comes into your bank account every one or two weeks is money that you have to spend. When you're a business owner, your finances are wildly different than they are when you are a W-2 employee. 6:38 And so I have a whole exercise that I go through with my clients to figure out what is your enough number. How much do you need for rent or mortgage? How much do you need for your car? 6:48 How much money do you need for debt repayment, right? We go through all of your expenses, and then we add in things like my business expenses, the overhead of operating my business. 7:00 And we get to a number of like, okay, here's the baseline number I need my business to make in order to sustain the life that I live right now. And then we start negotiating with u- ourselves, right? 7:13 Well, maybe I'm not gonna be able to get to that number in year one or the next six months. So, like, maybe I don't get to go out to eat as much, or maybe we're not taking a vacation this year. 7:24 And so you start to sort of like set financial goals around your business. 7:29 And I think those are two really important things that you should be clear about or get clear about in the very early stages of your entrepreneurial experience, is like start selling right away, start making money right away, and then figure out exactly how much money you need to make in order to live. 7:49 Curious about the emotional journey that goes on while you're taking women through- Yeah... this process. Yeah. 7:56 Because I think it's, uh, really important to acknowledge how involved you have to be in your finances when you have your own company- Yeah... versus, like you said, collecting the paycheck. Because- Yeah... 8:05 it's com- it's a job in and of itself, and I know there can be a lot of unconscious resistance going into it. Can you talk to us about how people work through that with you as well? Absolutely. 8:18 I think money is so loaded for so many of us. It's scary. We don't-- We either have avoidance on money, where we just don't wanna look at it, we don't wanna talk about it, we don't... 8:31 It's, it's a very stressful situation. Or get so caught up in the minutia, right? Like, some people are looking at their bank account several times a day, right? 8:41 Money creates so much stress and anxiety for so many of us. So l- so I acknowledge that 1,000%. And I'm not, by the way, immune to those feelings myself, so I'm right there in that bucket with everybody else. 8:56 I think the, the enough number exercise sometimes is the first time many of the women I work with have actually even taken an honest look at how much they make, where their money goes, and how they spend their money. 9:11 So I was an early employee at LearnVest, which was a financial services and advisory business for, for women. 9:17 And we taught women how to look at their money and think about money in a way that helped set them up for long-term financial success. So helping women understand and make money is deeply, deeply personal to me. I... 9:33 You know, my mom was a single mom of five kids under 10 at a very young age, and so I've seen what happens when you have money, when you don't have money. 9:45 And so I really empathize and understand the emotional journey that comes with looking at your finances. So, so that's kind of money, right? Let's put that in, like, o- one bucket. 9:57 Then you have this whole other thing of selling and having to ask for money, which is connected but totally different. And so sales avoidance is real. And 10:08 look, when even saying the word "sales" or saying that I have to sell something or saying that I'm getting on a sales call, people have a visceral reaction to that. They feel gross. They don't wanna do it. 10:20 Sales avoidance is a very real thing. Um, but the- at the end of the day, if you're not selling and you're not making money, you don't have a business and you don't have a livelihood. And as women, 10:35 we wear a lot of different hats in life. We are mothers, we are wives, we are daughters, we are friends, we are lawyers, we are runners, right? We put all of these different hats on, 10:49 but when you're starting your own business, you also have to wear your business owner hat, and you also have to wear your sales girl hat sometimes. And my word of the year for last year was uncomfortable, 11:03 because I wanted to do things in my business that felt uncomfortable for me. And I think as a business owner, one of the things we have to embrace is discomfort. Mm. 11:17 Because you have to do a lot of things that are uncomfortable as a business owner, whether that's hiring and firing people, looking at your finances, doing sales calls. 11:28 And I think an entrepreneurship journey is uncomfortable. 11:33 Life at times is really uncomfortable, and there is nothing like being a business owner that forces you to confront things that you don't wanna do or parts of your personality or skill set that you don't want to do. 11:50 So certainly you can hire people to deal with finance, you can hire people to deal with billing. But I wanna make women, you know... Yes, I wanna teach women to sell. Yes, I want... 12:01 But get comfortable with the idea of knowing about and understanding your money, and knowing about And understanding how to sell. Because if you understand money, and if you know how to sell, 12:15 you will be successful no matter what you do with business, no matter what you do in life. Let's say this business you walk away from at some point. You can go do something else. 12:26 Even if you go back to corporate, knowing how to sell is a life skill. If you look at any CEO of a major corporation, almost all of them spent some time in sales because it's essential to running a successful business. 12:42 So yes, it's emotional. Yes, it's very charged. I acknowledge that, but sometimes you have to confront those things head-on in order to get to where you wanna be. 12:53 And these conversations with experts like yourself are so important because so- Yeah... many of us are in a place whether our bodies are telling us we can't do it anymore- [laughs]... 13:03 in the corporate role, or our, our schedules are telling us. All of these women are bumping up against these walls saying, "This is a system that doesn't work for me." But they're highly- Yeah... 13:14 competent, highly ambitious, highly motivated, and I think the more transparent we can be about, look, it's not flip a switch and, oh, now I don't have a boss and everything's great. I'm the boss of everything. Yeah. 13:25 It's actually very challenging. However, it's possible so long as we're open and in, in dialogue with others about it. Yeah. And ultimately what we're gonna create is so much better, I believe. Yeah. 13:40 I do too, and I think there's this trend happening in entrepreneurship for women where we think if we're not making over a million, if we don't have a seven-figure business, we're not successful. 13:54 And I really wanna break that for a lot of us because that isn't the goal for everybody. That's not the reason why a lot of us are starting our businesses. 14:04 And if that's what you want, I am all for it, but a lot of people are just trying to replace their corporate salary, or they wanna be able to 14:14 pick up their children from school a couple days a week, or they want to, you know, stay home because they have a aging parent that they also need to be caring for. 14:22 There are so many different reasons why people are on their entrepreneurship journey, and I think one of the why the enough number is really important is because you get to figure out, like, what is enough for you. 14:37 It's really around goal-setting, not just around money, but what do you... what lifestyle do you want your business to be able to provide for you? And sometimes that's not seven figures. 14:49 Sometimes it's not the most amount of money you can make. There's a season for that for a lot of us. But sometimes you're stepping away because 14:59 what you really need is flexibility and time, but you also need to make money. 15:04 And so I just want everyone to realize that, like, your entrepreneurship journey is your own, and you don't owe anybody an ex- explanation as to why you're building the business the way you are and why you're setting the goals that you're setting. 15:20 It's everyone gets to build the business they want to build. It's people like us that, you know, are having the conversation, that are providing the skills and the framework and the enablement to do it on your own terms. 15:35 But it's not for me to judge, you know, what kind of business and at what scale you wanna do it. It's, it's giving you the tools and the support to do whatever it is, you know, you want to do. 15:48 And sometimes that's tough love, but most of the time it's a thought partner and providing the skills to help you get there. Yeah. 15:56 It's about being able to prioritize, not just about work, but folding your life into your work prioritization. Absolutely. Like coaching softball team or, you know- Yeah... doing pickup and things like that. 16:08 One more tactical question, 'cause I'm- Yeah... curious. I know that there are sensitivities around being salesy, and a lot of us recoil at the idea. But can you talk to us how, 16:21 about how you train women around this being an asset actually and, and how we- Yeah... can leverage it in conversation? Yeah. 16:28 I think most of the time people think of sales as being really gross is because we've all had really bad experiences where we've been sold to in a way that we don't like, and so we associate that. 16:41 I mean, it goes back to, I remember the phone ringing while we... I mean, this is, like, dating myself, but, like, the phone ringing during dinner when we're sitting around the table and it's, like, a cold call. 16:53 Or, you know, walking in somewhere and there's a salesperson that's, like, really trying to push something, and we're just like... 17:00 One of the reasons I love working with women is because we are very collaborative, and we really value... Or it's about value exchange, right? Mm-hmm. 17:10 And so that's the lens through which I look at sales, is are we providing equal value exchange? I have a service. Someone needs my service. 17:21 Am I pricing it in a way where I'm getting paid fairly for what I do and this person is getting really good value for what they need? 17:31 And when you think sales as a service, I think, is a term that gets thrown around a lot, but I think women naturally are able to... We want to be of service, and most of us are service providers, right? 17:46 Um, so, so really reframing what selling is. 17:51 And I'm a very relationship-driven salesperson, and so I come into every conversation genuinely curious about someone and their business, and can I help them or, or not. 18:04 Maybe I'm not the right fit and actually not what they need. So there's kind of that approach to it. And then the other thing that I really, uh, stress is asking permission to sell. 18:16 So when I'm on a call or when I'm talking to someone, one is like, I just wanna gather as much information. Think of yourself as like a little investigator. 18:25 You're really trying to gather as much information from people as possible when you're on a sales call because, one, you need to know, like, is this somebody I can actually help? 18:36 Is this someone I actually wanna work with? And, you know, are they at a point where they're ready to do the thing that I do? 18:45 Because a lot of times we talk to people, and they're just not at a point where they need our help. Mm. And then as we're talking, I sort of get to a point and I say, "I think I can help you. 18:55 Can I tell you about what I do and see if it's a fit for you?" And that sounds like, kind of like a throwaway thing, but really what you're doing there is you're asking permission to sell them, right? 19:11 'Cause the next thing is my pitch, right? The next thing is like what I do and how I think I can help. And by asking them, "Hey, I think I can help you. Can I tell you about it?" 19:22 What you're doing is you're getting buy-in from them that, yes, it's okay to sell to me right now. And I think that's a really important distinction. 19:31 I've been on calls with people where they set up a coffee chat or a connection call, and what it ends up being is a really hard sales call right off the bat, and I'm like, "Wait a second, I thought we were just trying to get to know each other. 19:46 I thought you were just curious to actually maybe have a connection with me, and it turns out this is a sales call, and I didn't sign up to be pitched. I don't even know who you are or that I need... 19:59 Like, you came looking for me." And I think a lot of women experience that. It's something that I actually, like, can't stand and tell people not to do. I genuinely love ca- coffee chats and connection calls. 20:14 If that turns into an opportunity for you to, you know, help someone, great. 20:20 But being really clear about when is it okay to sell and when are you actually building a relationship is important, and then asking for permission to sell to people lets them know what's coming next so nobody's blindsided, and it lets you say like, "Okay, 20:38 now, now I can sell and feel confident because the other person wants to know what it is I do and how I help." A- and mentally, there's something interesting that switches when you're like, "Okay, can I offer you this? 20:52 Yes, I can." Whew. "Okay, they wanna know what I do. They're interested in seeing how I can help them." The pressure is off a little bit. It sounds much more natural and fluid- Yeah... 21:03 and less forced, which is, you know, going into a conversation where you feel like you're going to have to force is never gonna work out, and- Doesn't feel good... 21:12 doesn't feel good for anyone, so I really like the reframe there. And I just think about men because they're so relational in their sales. Yeah. Sometimes. 21:23 Sometimes, sometimes not, but I, I do think that, you know, men kind of talk about business really fluidly with each other, and I think- Mm-hmm... that's changing for women. I think it's slowly changing, 21:35 which is a good change to see, and I agree. I think it's a, a note that we could take. Well, thank you so much for your time today. Yeah. Can you tell people where they can find you? Yes. 21:45 So I hang out on LinkedIn a lot, so, um, Jac White, J-A-C White on LinkedIn. My company is Honeybees Group, so that's honeybeesgroup.co. 21:54 And I also have a podcast called Girls Make Bank, where you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcasts. 22:01 And I talk all about building a business and making money and selling as a woman, and touch on a lot of the things that we talked about today. 22:12 Uh, so I hope to find, you know, out more about your listeners, and feel free to connect with me there. Likewise. We really appreciate your insights, and we'll certainly be in touch. Thank you so much.
